How To Split An Atom - Latest Comments in How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Troy Daniels — Mon, 04 May 2009 22:39:31 -0000

Hi Troy,

After reviewing your situation, we have determined that you violated our Terms of Use. Please note that nudity and other sexually explicit content is not allowed on the site. Additionally, we do not allow users to send messages that are sexually suggestive, or that other users may find harassing in nature. We will not be able to reactivate your account for any reason. This decision is final.

Thanks for your understanding,

Johanna
User Operations
Facebook

-----Original Message to Facebook-----
From: td (td02131@yahoo.com)
To: disabled@facebook.com (disabled@facebook.com)
Subject: facebook

facebook,

I've had a facebook account for awhile, I didn’t use it much for over a year, maybe more. I added a friend at the friend's request and within a few days I ended up adding dozens of friends through a network of friends (close to 100). I was a prominent member of an organization of which former members now seek support through networking tools like facebook.

In addition to adding many friends I did have some nude pictures on there, I admit that I did not read the fine print and I thought that only a few friends could see the pictures. These photos were not particularly egregious as they did not depict sex, they were nude photos of individuals.

I’m a little surprised that freedoms are surpressed and censorship is so punitive when facebook friendships are restricted to only those you allow to see your account. What happens between friends is the business of facebook? I was sharing pictures with close friends only. I wouldn’t want
my mom to see them, therefore I wouldn’t accept her as a friend. Without warning or notice my account was disabled.

I have mixed feelings about it. I question how “private” facebook is and I question their “punishment.” There was never an opportunity to correct
the situation, which I would have gladly done. I have no argument with correcting my account to meet the terms, if/when given the opportunity to do so. I question the “right” facebook has to allow you to establish a network that they arbitrarily take away, without any kind of due process there will be friends with which I will never be able to reconnect.

There are limits to how much any business can regulate or censor its customers, even violate their constitutional rights, when they invite the public to their business. If I am in a store and the store doesn’t like a picture I show a friend, can the store kick me out? Can they ban me from the store permanently? How far does public policy allow us to go with the censorship? This may be a question that the courts have yet to decide.

Facebook is a private company, but so is the telephone company and they can't disconnect a call because they don’t like the subject of my conversation. The post office can't refuse to deliver mail for which they find the contents offensive. If I violate the policies of the phone company, post office or any store they do not have the right to dismiss me permanently without a warning, notice or hearing. Personally, I think it is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Generally harm or loss must attach. In addition to the emotional distress people suffer, what about the connections people make to stay with others around the world? When those connections are lost, it isn’t difficult to calculate a monetary loss. Many of the former members of the organization of which I was a member are suicidal and need support from someone that understands their plight. The organization we belonged to discouraged therapist or outside assistance to deal with these problems. In addition to many other scenarios, there may even be medical or healthcare advice being exchanged that could cause serious injury or death.

I realize that facebook is putting the public on “notice” when it has the policy online. However, those wrap-around or adhesion contracts do not stand up in every state or country. Facebook should have an expectation that they could be hauled into court in any jurisdicton through long arm statutes and international treaty. I’m sure facebook addresses this in their “contract” as well, but, again, those don’t always stand up.

What’s also interesting is that apparently some receive a warning and some do not. This is but one of the warnings found on facebook’s “help center warnings.”

“You received this warning because a photo or video that you uploaded has been removed for violating Facebook’s Terms of Use. Photos and videos containing nudity, drug use, or other graphic content are not allowed, nor are photos or videos that depict violence or that attack an individual or group. Unfortunately, for technical reasons, we are unable to provide further information about the removed content. In order to prevent this from happening in the future, please refrain from posting photos or videos of this kind and remove any that still exist on the site.”

http://www.facebook.com/help.php?page=421

Apparently there are different standards for different individuals. It would be interesting to see the different standards used for different groups. In other words, is facebook discriminating? Does facebook have less tolerance for gays, lesbians, blacks, hispanics, women, etc.? They invited the public, they have to play by the rules of our society. The rules include some constitutional rights. While it is true that I don't have to join facebook anymore than I have to go to a store, it is also true that no one ever said facebook had to open a business and invite the public.

Respectfully,

Troy Daniels

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

sbspalding — Sat, 02 May 2009 21:08:07 -0000

This is a very interesting question, if you don't mind me reprinting
this comment I'd like to turn it into a blog post.

Thanks for writing such an extensive comment.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Troy Daniels — Sat, 02 May 2009 00:33:33 -0000

I had a facebook account for awhile, I didn’t use it much for over a year, maybe more. I added a friend at the friend's request and within a few days I ended up adding dozens of friends through a network of friends (close to 100). I was a prominent member of an organization of which former members now seek support through networking tools like facebook.

In addition to adding many friends I did have some nude pictures on there, I admit that I did not read the fine print and I thought that only a few friends could see the pictures.

I’m a little surprised that freedoms are surpressed and censorship is so punitive when facebook friendships are restricted to only those you allow to see your account. What happens between friends is the business of facebook? I was sharing pictures with close friends only. I wouldn’t want my mom to see them, therefore I wouldn’t accept her as a friend. Without warning my account was disabled.

I have mixed feelings about it. I question how “private” facebook is and I question their “punishment.” There was never an opportunity to correct the situation, which I would have gladly done. I question the “right” facebook has to allow you to establish a network that they arbitrarily take away, without any kind of due process there will be friends with which I will never be able to reconnect.

There are limits to how much any business can regulate or censor its customers, even violate their constitutional rights, when they invite the public to their business. If I am in a store and the store doesn’t like a picture I show a friend, can the store kick me out? Can they ban me from the store permanently? How far does public policy allow us to go with the censorship?

Facebook is a private company, but so is the telephone company and they can't disconnect a call because they don’t like the subject of my conversation. The post office is not public and they can't refuse to deliver mail for which they find the contents offensive. If I violate the policies of the phone company, post office or any store they do not have the right to dismiss me permanently without a warning, notice or hearing. Personally, I think it is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Generally harm or loss must attach. In addition to the emotional distress people suffer, what about the connections people make to stay with others around the world? When those connections are lost, it isn’t difficult to calculate a monetary loss. In addition to many other scenarios, there may even be medical or healthcare advice being exchanged that could cause serious injury or death. I realize that facebook is putting the public on “notice” when it has the policy online. However, those wrap-around or adhesion contracts do not stand up in every state. Facebook should have an expectation that they could be hauled into court in any jurisdicton through long arm statutes and international treaty. I’m sure they address that in their “contract” as well, but, again, those don’t always stand up.

What’s also interesting is that apparently some receive a warning and some do not. This is but one of the warnings found on facebook’s “help center warnings.”

“You received this warning because a photo or video that you uploaded has been removed for violating Facebook’s Terms of Use. Photos and videos containing nudity, drug use, or other graphic content are not allowed, nor are photos or videos that depict violence or that attack an individual or group. Unfortunately, for technical reasons, we are unable to provide further information about the removed content. In order to prevent this from happening in the future, please refrain from posting photos or videos of this kind and remove any that still exist on the site.”

http://www.facebook.com/help.php?page=421

Apparently there are different standards for different individuals. It would be interesting to see the different standards used for different groups. In other words, is facebook discriminating? Does facebook have less tolerance for gays, lesbians, blacks, hispanics, women, etc.? They invited the public, they have to play by the rules of our society. The rules include some constitutional rights. While it is true that I don't have to join facebook anymore than I have to go to a store, it is also true that no one ever said facebook had to open a business and invite the public.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Nana — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:24:55 -0000

Nicely put, I completely agree, especially when you say :
"I think that Facebook is a great theory, and an interesting product but I strongly question its ability to scale up to the level it would need to support itself 5 years down the line."
One does not have to be a genius to figure this out :))
Unless they somehow make radical changes , which I sincerely doubt ...

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

mmorpg — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:58:51 -0000

Agreed. Facebook will only be popular so long as they have no other competitors. As soon as a new / better social network comes out. Facebook is history.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Steve — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:31:37 -0000

I partially agree with you there. What I was trying to convey is that there are certain technologies with *wide* appeal, and there are others with very niche appeal. The technologies with niche appeal have a fairly low ceiling as far as their ability to scale.

I think that Facebook is a great theory, and an interesting product but I strongly question its ability to scale up to the level it would need to support itself 5 years down the line.

By support I mean substantially increase in revenue and some non-acquisition exit strategy.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Maggy Young — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:14:26 -0000

I think you've got the 'good for both me & my grandma' angle wrong. To me all the arguments both sides add up except this.

To be a major portal, you may need to be popular with the majority of frequent users, but I'm not sure that includes grandparents. Aren't they likely to be always in the minority?

Is there anything (other than search) which will appeal to all generations? I think maybe this type of site can't exist. Teens & students are still the main users & wouldn't they hate the idea of using a site that their grandma enjoys? And want something of their own? Sites are communities & you don't see your grandma down the disco.

Maybe the net is fated to be fragmented along a generational divide like popular music and similarly, moving to the next big thing. So Friendster was Elvis, MySpace was the Beatles, F/Book is Eminem and the 'next big thing' will be something your granny will hate. And the more grandma hates it, the huger it will be.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Steve — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:54:53 -0000

We could have said the same thing about Second Life. While the story has not been fully told for the site, I would have to say that it is going to be written into history as the introduction to an interesting concept, not as the concept itself.

For the tech crowd (including the execs that you mention, many of whom are the type who want to be seen as being on the cutting edge of technology) this is still their early introduction to Facebook. Of course there will be many people who adopt it for the sake of adoption, and even use it for a time. A better question than rapid growth, however, is sustained retention over a period of *years*, not months.

How many of these same execs will be keeping up with their Facebook profiles in 3 years, when 50 new web apps come along to steal their attention?

Growth and influence can never be measured in a microcosm Robert, and it certainly can never be measured by the tendencies of early adopters. If you take a look at the trend of use of a typical college Freshman who starts using Facebook it follows a very particular pattern.

Interest. "Wow, what a neat thing. Friend, Friend, Friend!"

Obsession. "I have so many friends, time to manage them!"

Irritation. "Man, why do I need to keep updating this thing?"

And sometime around graduation,

Rebellion. "OK, enough is enough. I certainly have better things to do."

Facebook has every reason to want to grow their market segments because I am sure they realize that the second their users enter the "real world" (unless they work deeply in technology), they tend to stop updating.

I'll never convince you of any of this, but just think about it Robert.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Robert Scoble — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 07:26:54 -0000

Read this: http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press...

I have a different perspective than you do. I have 4,200 Facebook contacts. They almost all are older than 30. Quite a few execs. Many influentials. People I do business with.

I don't care about existing audiences. I care about two things:

1) Growth.
2) Influence.

Facebook has both: in spades.

That tells me that the existing audiences will flip in the next year or two.

Two years ago we were having the same discussion about Flickr. Now it's moving up the chart very rapidly.

It just takes time.

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Steve — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:03:29 -0000

Easy Robert, it saturated its niche (college students). However, it still lacks the kind of mainstream appeal of services like AOL in the mid-90s (which is the closest proxy to Facebook's walled garden that I can come up with).

Even if you assumed that every person who uses MySpace is unique from those using Facebook (which they are not) and they all convert (which they won't) you would *still* have significantly less than 100 million people using Facebook. While these numbers are incredible by web app standards, they aren't that great unless Facebook manages to push some serious advertising inventory.

I have been using Facebook for 4 years now Robert and I have seen it through almost all of its major feature releases. I have yet to see a single one that proves that it is a piece of software ready to disrupt society at large (outside of the college/tech niche it embraces).

Re: How To Make A Case Against Facebook

Robert Scoble — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:43:44 -0000

OK, I assume you're correct that Facebook is only for "those inside my tidy tech bubble." But if that's true, how did Facebook get 35 million users? Or, is "my tidy tech bubble" really 35 million strong? If so, damn!